Comments on: Questions and Answers on the Python lists http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/ The ramblings of Tim Golden Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:43:29 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2 By: tim http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-979 tim Mon, 04 May 2009 16:10:19 +0000 http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-979 @Iain: I did sort of realise it might be viewed as a hint but, no, I wasn't trying to fish. Thanks for taking the trouble to reply here in any case. @Tartley: Take your point; I've never actually posted to, say, an MS SDK list about some odd feature I've encountered; but if I did I'd be at least one remove away from my comfort zone with the Python lists. And someone who doesn't have even that experience to fall back on might end up even more bewildered. It's also true that a simple(ish) question like, say, "why is this statement failing?" can lead to enormous sidetracks, philosophical discussions, heated debates, alternate universe theories and so on. All of which is mighty interesting to some people. But just perplexing to the OP who just wanted to know... @Iain: I did sort of realise it might be viewed as a hint but, no, I wasn’t trying to fish. Thanks for taking the trouble to reply here in any case.

@Tartley: Take your point; I’ve never actually posted to, say, an MS SDK list about some odd feature I’ve encountered; but if I did I’d be at least one remove away from my comfort zone with the Python lists. And someone who doesn’t have even that experience to fall back on might end up even more bewildered.

It’s also true that a simple(ish) question like, say, “why is this statement failing?” can lead to enormous sidetracks, philosophical discussions, heated debates, alternate universe theories and so on. All of which is mighty interesting to some people. But just perplexing to the OP who just wanted to know…

]]> By: Tartley http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-978 Tartley Mon, 04 May 2009 12:21:33 +0000 http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-978 There's a-sort-of-nother possibility which occurs to me, which overlaps with the ideas you discussed already, but may be hard to see if you're a high-functioning, programming expert, list regular. I'm thinking that sometimes, some people, in some environments, just don't have the spare capacity to write the reply. I'm not talking about plain apathy exactly, nor cavalier thoughtlessness. I'm just thinking of an average programmer struggling away on some problem that is just one of a dozen problems that they uncovered that day, and in getting bogged down trying out the suggestions they see in list replies, they just don't identify the 'aha!' moment in which they could usefully contribute back a reply, and they don't subscribe to the list normally, so they probably don't end up visiting the list again for another 18 months. And they aren't intimately familiar with the list: they don't subscribe, so aren't steeped in its norms or expectations, nor in exactly how the interface they have chosen to access the list (eg. Google groups) works, with regard to replying and threads and quoting. So crafting the reply is an unfamiliar process which lends just that quantum of extra cognitive overhead for them to try and fit into a busy day. Just a thought. There’s a-sort-of-nother possibility which occurs to me, which overlaps with the ideas you discussed already, but may be hard to see if you’re a high-functioning, programming expert, list regular. I’m thinking that sometimes, some people, in some environments, just don’t have the spare capacity to write the reply.

I’m not talking about plain apathy exactly, nor cavalier thoughtlessness. I’m just thinking of an average programmer struggling away on some problem that is just one of a dozen problems that they uncovered that day, and in getting bogged down trying out the suggestions they see in list replies, they just don’t identify the ‘aha!’ moment in which they could usefully contribute back a reply, and they don’t subscribe to the list normally, so they probably don’t end up visiting the list again for another 18 months.

And they aren’t intimately familiar with the list: they don’t subscribe, so aren’t steeped in its norms or expectations, nor in exactly how the interface they have chosen to access the list (eg. Google groups) works, with regard to replying and threads and quoting. So crafting the reply is an unfamiliar process which lends just that quantum of extra cognitive overhead for them to try and fit into a busy day.

Just a thought.

]]> By: Iain http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-977 Iain Mon, 04 May 2009 08:44:35 +0000 http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-977 I know that you are not fishing for thanks here, but your responses to other people's questions have been very helpful to me in the past. So thanks! I know that you are not fishing for thanks here, but your responses to other people’s questions have been very helpful to me in the past.

So thanks!

]]> By: tim http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-976 tim Mon, 04 May 2009 05:06:18 +0000 http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-976 @dads: this is a slightly difficult one. Some people frown upon emails which constitute low-level noise, such as those which just say "me-too" or, perhaps, those which just say "thanks". My own feeling is that a sign of goodwill is more important than a very slight amount of noise. But if you're in doubt, it's surely always acceptable to send off-list thanks. It's not just a question of thanks, also, but of documenting the result of the suggestion. Did it help? Was the question misunderstood? Someone coming along later to search would know straightaway whether it's worth pursuing the suggestion. @dads: this is a slightly difficult one. Some people frown upon emails which constitute low-level noise, such as those which just say “me-too” or, perhaps, those which just say “thanks”. My own feeling is that a sign of goodwill is more important than a very slight amount of noise. But if you’re in doubt, it’s surely always acceptable to send off-list thanks.

It’s not just a question of thanks, also, but of documenting the result of the suggestion. Did it help? Was the question misunderstood? Someone coming along later to search would know straightaway whether it’s worth pursuing the suggestion.

]]> By: Curly Joe http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-975 Curly Joe Mon, 04 May 2009 03:18:08 +0000 http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-975 "but as a mercenary who wants merely to get something from Python and walk away." This hits the nail on the head, in part. I would guess that less than 1/2 of the questioners respond with a "thanks". Some are so much in their own world that this doesn't even occur to them. To the extreme was one questioner, on one of the forums, who posted a link to the homework problem. This person would not even copy and paste the question. Then, when someone who responded did not give the complete answer, but just a suggestion on how to solve it, the OP bereated the person who was answering, saying that they didn't read the entire site at the link posted and should come back with a complete solution. People are people and some are worth spending our free time on, and some are not. But how do you tell the difference? “but as a mercenary who wants merely to get something from Python and walk away.”

This hits the nail on the head, in part. I would guess that less than 1/2 of the questioners respond with a “thanks”. Some are so much in their own world that this doesn’t even occur to them. To the extreme was one questioner, on one of the forums, who posted a link to the homework problem. This person would not even copy and paste the question. Then, when someone who responded did not give the complete answer, but just a suggestion on how to solve it, the OP bereated the person who was answering, saying that they didn’t read the entire site at the link posted and should come back with a complete solution. People are people and some are worth spending our free time on, and some are not. But how do you tell the difference?

]]> By: holdenweb http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-974 holdenweb Mon, 04 May 2009 03:16:17 +0000 http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-974 Gmane is fine when you use it through a newsreader. All of the various web interfaces to newsgroups, forums and emails suffer from varying degrees of suckage. Gmane is fine when you use it through a newsreader. All of the various web interfaces to newsgroups, forums and emails suffer from varying degrees of suckage.

]]> By: dads http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-973 dads Mon, 04 May 2009 00:35:41 +0000 http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-973 I generally didn't thank the nice people that replied to my questions simply because I'm not sure what happens to the email (I'm new to mailing lists!). I just thought that a lot of thank you style emails that have no decent content wouldn't be any help to people searching the lists - even though I must admit it does seem very impolite to me. So I guess a thank you is the correct etiquette? I generally didn’t thank the nice people that replied to my questions simply because I’m not sure what happens to the email (I’m new to mailing lists!). I just thought that a lot of thank you style emails that have no decent content wouldn’t be any help to people searching the lists - even though I must admit it does seem very impolite to me. So I guess a thank you is the correct etiquette?

]]> By: http://paddy3118.blogspot.com/ http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-972 http://paddy3118.blogspot.com/ Sun, 03 May 2009 21:21:04 +0000 http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-972 I found after a number of years that the community on comp.lang.python had matured and had increased in numbers. Others gave just as good advice as I could give and were just as polite. I had also decided to start my own blog and, as Google allowed me to save a blog query and report on all python mentions in blogs, I decided to branch out and answer blog queries on Python, or where I thought a Python based answer was relevant. From the start I said I was going to be polite at all times, as i think some people, the right kind of people, will be influenced by how I, a member of the Python community behave, and get interested in Python. Like in mail lists, it is hard to judge what good you might be doing, but I like to think I'm doing my little bit to help shape a community I like. - Paddy. I found after a number of years that the community on comp.lang.python had matured and had increased in numbers. Others gave just as good advice as I could give and were just as polite. I had also decided to start my own blog and, as Google allowed me to save a blog query and report on all python mentions in blogs, I decided to branch out and answer blog queries on Python, or where I thought a Python based answer was relevant.

From the start I said I was going to be polite at all times, as i think some people, the right kind of people, will be influenced by how I, a member of the Python community behave, and get interested in Python.

Like in mail lists, it is hard to judge what good you might be doing, but I like to think I’m doing my little bit to help shape a community I like.

- Paddy.

]]> By: tim http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-971 tim Sun, 03 May 2009 20:04:04 +0000 http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-971 @Phil: on the very few occasions I've used gmane I've never found its interface particularly useful and I think I've ended up responding either via the equivalent Google Group if there was one, or via the mail archive, again if there was one, by clicking on the sender's address which is linked as a mailto: with the list address and subject filled in. I've no idea what it does to message thread tracking, but at least it's one way. @Phil: on the very few occasions I’ve used gmane I’ve never found its interface particularly useful and I think I’ve ended up responding either via the equivalent Google Group if there was one, or via the mail archive, again if there was one, by clicking on the sender’s address which is linked as a mailto: with the list address and subject filled in. I’ve no idea what it does to message thread tracking, but at least it’s one way.

]]> By: Phil Mayes http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-970 Phil Mayes Sun, 03 May 2009 19:38:35 +0000 http://ramblings.timgolden.me.uk/2009/05/03/questions-and-answers-on-the-python-lists/#comment-970 I usually both offer and acknowledge help, eg on the wxPython list, but the other week, I had a regular expression question, so I asked on the python list using GMANE as I'm not subscribed. I got several useful replies, and then COULD NOT SEE HOW TO RESPOND TO THAT THREAD. So my belated thanks to those two people. I usually both offer and acknowledge help, eg on the wxPython list, but the other week, I had a regular expression question, so I asked on the python list using GMANE as I’m not subscribed. I got several useful replies, and then COULD NOT SEE HOW TO RESPOND TO THAT THREAD. So my belated thanks to those two people.

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